Curse

Reverend Dr · Jun 09, 2009, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Admin Edit We're moving the Paragon discussion out of the June skill balance thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ciric

Paragons are to weak after all the nerfs, agg. ref. with cracked armor should be fine to be 33% again, and GFTE buff would put it back to its old state without the retarded energy gain ( could make the break 10 command so that it forces odd specs in some cases).

Paragons have always existed in such a weird state, due to the poor design of many shouts/chants and leadership as a primary attribute. Almost every time that paragons have been at the forefront, they have used cheap adrenal shouts (GftE, Watch yourself, Power is Yours) as an energy engine to fuel skills that (from a design standpoint of 2 pips of energy rege) should not be able to afford.

Nevertheless look at the skill set needed to play paragon. There is not much more required than c-space and mashing skills on recharge. Again this goes back to poor design, but is something like this at top levels of play desirable?

lutz · Jun 10, 2009, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Paragons have always existed in such a weird state, due to the poor design of many shouts/chants and leadership as a primary attribute. Almost every time that paragons have been at the forefront, they have used cheap adrenal shouts (GftE, Watch yourself, Power is Yours) as an energy engine to fuel skills that (from a design standpoint of 2 pips of energy rege) should not be able to afford.

Nevertheless look at the skill set needed to play paragon. There is not much more required than c-space and mashing skills on recharge. Again this goes back to poor design, but is something like this at top levels of play desirable?

I feel there are a couple levels of play that can be achieved by a particular role in Guild Wars - the names are pretty arbitrary, but here goes:

1. Terrible - you don't know how to play the role at all; you don't even know what the skills do and what you're supposed to do.
2. Bad - you know how to click the skills but you don't support the team enough to fulfill your role. This is probably people in the top 200-500.
3. Decent - you can click the skills and do your role minimally. You don't win games, and you might lose them sometimes. This is probably most people in the top 100 and top 50.
4. Good - you can click your skills and fulfill your role well. This is people usually in the top 20.
5. Very Good - you can click your skills, fulfill your role completely, and support other teammates in accomplishing their roles. There are extremely few players like this now. These players support their entire team, and noticably stand out.
6. Top Tier

Paragons have a scale similar to this. c-space and mashing your skills on recharge would place you at a 2, maybe 3. There are several ways to play a paragon well, and there are few people that can actually accomplish this. It's not a braindead character - it's just like any other damage support character. It's easy to play "decently", but it's extremely hard to play it very well.

Xyon the Greatest · Jun 10, 2009, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

I feel there are a couple levels of play that can be achieved by a particular role in Guild Wars - the names are pretty arbitrary, but here goes:

1. Terrible - you don't know how to play the role at all; you don't even know what the skills do and what you're supposed to do.
2. Bad - you know how to click the skills but you don't support the team enough to fulfill your role. This is probably people in the top 200-500.
3. Decent - you can click the skills and do your role minimally. You don't win games, and you might lose them sometimes. This is probably most people in the top 100 and top 50.
4. Good - you can click your skills and fulfill your role well. This is people usually in the top 20.
5. Very Good - you can click your skills, fulfill your role completely, and support other teammates in accomplishing their roles. There are extremely few players like this now. These players support their entire team, and noticably stand out.
6. Top Tier

Paragons have a scale similar to this. c-space and mashing your skills on recharge would place you at a 2, maybe 3. There are several ways to play a paragon well, and there are few people that can actually accomplish this. It's not a braindead character - it's just like any other damage support character. It's easy to play "decently", but it's extremely hard to play it very well.

I would have to applause you for this post (clap clap) this is what i was trying to say, but it was hard to say it in this way.

Basically, paragons CAN be a very good profession, but you have to play it right
People can't play paragons right =
so they make paragons look bad =
takes down paragons ego =
no one plays paragons=
paragons are a failure class to the public, but they really are not.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 10, 2009, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Paragons have a scale similar to this. c-space and mashing your skills on recharge would place you at a 2, maybe 3. There are several ways to play a paragon well, and there are few people that can actually accomplish this. It's not a braindead character - it's just like any other damage support character. It's easy to play "decently", but it's extremely hard to play it very well.

They have scale, it stops at about 2 though.

1- c space click skills on recharge
2-c space/sustain damage on certain target, click dmg skills when needed, and continue to pretty much click your shouts on recharge.

Furthermore the current breed of Paragon templates being used in this meta is even less desirable to play than previous ones. Could say that's a good indication of the health of GW currently.

lutz · Jun 10, 2009, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

They have scale, it stops at about 2 though.

1- c space click skills on recharge
2-c space/sustain damage on certain target, click dmg skills when needed, and continue to pretty much click your shouts on recharge.

Furthermore the current breed of Paragon templates being used in this meta is even less desirable to play than previous ones. Could say that's a good indication of the health of GW currently.

No, it doesn't. Playing a paragon well is not brainless.

Snow Bunny · Jun 10, 2009, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

No, it doesn't. Playing a paragon well is not brainless.

You put up Aggressive refrain, stand close enough so that you can deal damage while not so close as to eat up your monks' energy, you spam your adrenal shout, spam whatever motivation skills you have to keep your team from wiping, and spam your attack skills on pressured targets and on spikes.

If you're running TPIY you spam that, if it's cruel spear you spike when they're on their ass.

Isn't that how you play a paragon well? Last time I checked there's good flaggers, good warriors, good rangers, good mesmers...but no one's a "good paragon".

lutz · Jun 10, 2009, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

You put up Aggressive refrain, stand close enough so that you can deal damage while not so close as to eat up your monks' energy, you spam your adrenal shout, spam whatever motivation skills you have to keep your team from wiping, and spam your attack skills on pressured targets and on spikes.

If you're running TPIY you spam that, if it's cruel spear you spike when they're on their ass.

Isn't that how you play a paragon well? Last time I checked there's good flaggers, good warriors, good rangers, good mesmers...but no one's a "good paragon".

If you're playing a Paragon in a build, you're likely to have some sort of pressure included in your build. Even spikes with Paragons in them have a good amount of pressure through frequent spiking. A good, balanced (as in, game-balanced) pressure build involves alot more than just micro - it involves a lot of strategy, communication and synergy.

The difficult part about being a Paragon isn't your micro. Hitting things on recharge and keeping your Aggressive Refrain up is the "autopilot" part of your job - it's almost done subconsciously. The hard part about Paragon is like any other damage character: where you're putting your damage, who is most vulnerable, where you can get kills, etc. Oftentimes, if you have an interrupt on your bar like Power Spike, Cry, or Power Return, hitting it on a crucial skill at the right time (e.g. Word of Healing, Guardian) will cause someone to die. It's awareness that makes you good. In a sense, this attribute is desired amongst all characters. Awareness makes you good at Paragon and damage-based characters.

Everyone's description of a Paragon being "c-space targets, keep your Aggressive up, and click buttons on recharge" is simply talking about the micro portion. That's analgous to saying "warrioring is just quarterstepping, hitting bulls, hitting Frenzy on recharge and Rush when you're taking damage or need to move fast." Microing a warrior is pretty easy. I can hit bulls, quarterstep, dchop well, and dstrike any skill 3/4 and above. But that doesn't make me good at warrior. In fact, I'm a terrible warrior. There are elements to being good that are outside of micro. Guild Wars isn't really a micro-based game. You need to realize that. It's more about strategy and macro.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 10, 2009, 07:16 AM // 07:16

No paragons are pretty brainless, it's not like a warrior where you actually have a decent chance to get any kills by yourself or where you have to position yourself to attack the right people.

It is without a doubt the easiest profession to play (well) and your micro is for the most part limited to attacking the right targets at the right times and switching to the appropriate spear to maximise the damage on the target you're attacking.

And then depending on your bar it can get a little harder say if you have an interrupt (most paragons right now just run shit like never surrender and stand your ground and occassionally empathic removal and those really don't take much more than common sense to use effectively).

It's possible to be bad at paragon, but even playing a paragon to it's most effectiveness isn't very difficult...

Ex Death · Jun 10, 2009, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Well actually the paragons with mesmer interupts did require a lot of skill but this wasn't reflected by those who played it since 95% of people played it terribly. The vast majority of people would just camp the other team's mesmer 24/7 even if the opposing team didn't have the offensive advantage. What's worse is that is that these paragons made it so ridiculously obvious that they were camping the mesmer because they would constantly autoattack it without ever switching targets, even if the mesmer was protted. To play the template optimally, constant target switching was required as well as not making it obvious who you were intending to use your interupts on. This template actually required a hell of a lot of micro which no one actually bothered to exploit to its maximum potential.

As a sidenote, generally the more often you have to 'click your skills' the more this detracts from macro awareness, however, the problem with most paragon roles were that many macro decisions were not required to be made from them (as opposed to a mind blast split ele - not that I think these require skill).

Xyon the Greatest · Jun 10, 2009, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

It is without a doubt the easiest profession to play...

Woah woah woah back up there, if you have ever played a real paragon build its not easy to play to support your teammates and support damage its like playing a ranger and a monk together.

Burton2000 · Jun 10, 2009, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

It is without a doubt the easiest profession to play (well)

^This.

Seriously how can you not say paragon is the easiest profession to play well. Even if you did have an interupt like power return all you need to do is use it on the mesmers diversion/shame so you dont wipe and there you go. There is acually no real skill involved in playing paragon.

Phe Belladona · Jun 10, 2009, 03:55 PM // 15:55

ppl seem to think that the "switch targets to deal most damage" part of the paragon makes it more skill rewarding, but when switching targets requires TAB <space> and you're imediately hitting the new target its not really a lot of effort eh. also most of the para defense stuff is pushing the buttons on recharge (atm anyway, chaining stand and then spamming shouts to keep mending up) and just using empathic intelligently, but im pretty damn sure general morghan can do this well.

paras can be played decently by targetting pressured things and wild throwing at the right times, but seriously ITS NOT HARD and if you think it is then really you should prolly play paragon.

Krill · Jun 10, 2009, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

No paragons are pretty brainless...It is without a doubt the easiest profession to play (well)

Even easier than bspiking?

Well you can argue all day about what is easy and what is not in guild warz...in the end it's possible to do it wrong with any build. E.g., if you're playing an ER para and ER is d-shot or magebane'd all the time because you don't pay attention to the ranger standing right next to you.

Sun Fired Blank · Jun 10, 2009, 09:16 PM // 21:16

It's really not worth debating whether paragons are hard to play or not.

Snow Bunny · Jun 10, 2009, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Whether it's easy or not to play a paragon well is highly relevant to the discussion - a paragon reward skillful play to a large extent.

They're still very strong, strong enough for top50 teams to take terrible players and win vs. other top50 teams.

But they only beat hexways right now....the ranger/ele/ele/necro/necro build is stronger than an 8v8 para build, even with tpiy for monks.

I think that they should get buffed in a slight way, but in a sense that you can't have a motigon that deals so much damage - Paragon skills should have breakpoints that force them to specialize, be it command, motivation, or spear damage. AR is fine as it is - as it stands now, they still have a perma-IAS, which holds the title of best IAS out there.

Possibly nerfing command and motivation at breakpoints below 11 or 10 would be a decent rework I think.

lutz · Jun 10, 2009, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Whether it's easy or not to play a paragon well is highly relevant to the discussion - a paragon reward skillful play to a large extent.

They're still very strong, strong enough for top50 teams to take terrible players and win vs. other top50 teams.

But they only beat hexways right now....the ranger/ele/ele/necro/necro build is stronger than an 8v8 para build, even with tpiy for monks.

I think that they should get buffed in a slight way, but in a sense that you can't have a motigon that deals so much damage - Paragon skills should have breakpoints that force them to specialize, be it command, motivation, or spear damage. AR is fine as it is - as it stands now, they still have a perma-IAS, which holds the title of best IAS out there.

Possibly nerfing command and motivation at breakpoints below 11 or 10 would be a decent rework I think.

Playing a paragon takes skill. It's not micro skill, but rather strategy on where to place damage. Many times you'll come across incidents where, if a paragon had placed a couple spear attacks in one place, someone on the other team would have died. These situations happen alot in pressure builds (where paragons are primarily used). Good paragons will consistently get you these kills. Bad ones won't. It's pretty hard to get to the "good paragon" point where you consistently get kills. As a paragon, you need to think for yourself in pressure play - where you can place the best damage to support your damage characters and do the most damage.

Sun Fired Blank · Jun 10, 2009, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Like what, Lutz?

Like your comprehensive treatise on how players in roles have to click skills, fulfill their roles well, and support their team in order to be good at their roles in order to score on a scale from 1 to 6? With you not even defining 6?

If you want to lay out some kind of argument such as: active midline templates are good for the game, paragons demand (or should demand) a skillset making them one of those active midline templates, paragons aren't present enough or correctly in the meta and should therefore be changed... be my guest. That's totally productive and on topic.

Saying you think Paragons are a skillful class because you have to push your buttons to put damage somewhere and score kills is a really dumb argument.

Master Fuhon · Jun 11, 2009, 12:42 AM // 00:42

You can’t view an issue from two sides without first creating two sides to view it from. If two sides aren’t diametrically opposed to each other; very rarely will a conversation encompass a full view of both sides of the object. And often enough, you will not find anyone motivated enough to defend points or come up with new ideas without presentation of the diametric opposite.

Neutrality is the point between those two sides. Anywhere there appears to be two sides, there are often four sides. Each obvious position can have a ‘for’ and ‘against’ side. There aren’t just pro-paragon and anti-paragon sides; there are (pro-)pro-paragon, anti-pro-paragon, (pro-)anti-paragon, anti-anti-paragon sides. Taking a false neutral position can lead to a person having 75% of the positions opposed to them instead of the 50% that they believe. The only solution is to take greater caution in one’s neutrality.

Certain conversations are not designed for everyone to provide contribution to or to receive entertainment from. A ‘neutral’ decision to ‘moderate’ these conversations may effect far more positions than one can initially recognize.

Sun Fired Blank · Jun 11, 2009, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Fuhon, you're just saying that in order for people to talk for or against something, there has to be a group of people who want to talk for or against being for or against something. In order for an arbitrator to be truly neutral, he or she wants people not only to talk for or against paragons, but to want to talk for or against paragons, and that when one stifles the debate here, regardless of whether it's on topic or not, that removes those two sides of the conversation, which is ultimately harmful.

What you're trying to say, I think, in short terms, is that moderators shouldn't encourage dialectic argument; or maybe they can only encourage dialectic argument? But I think your approach only leads to people who want to encourage dialectic argument. Ultimately nothing a moderator does can force users to engage in progressive discourse and actual dialogue. Everyone is coming in thinking they're right or that they're more right than someone else. No one is interested in transformational conversation. And when they're interested in having it, they're only interested in having that conversation with certain people.

Master Fuhon · Jun 11, 2009, 01:35 AM // 01:35

I can't remember the previous content of the posts that I saw, but some complaints are not to be taken literally. A complaint about paragons needing buffs could really be a statement by a player who cannot figure a more versatile way to play the class. Just as calling the class skill-less, is really just making a statement that you do not believe there is any new tricks that you can pull out by playing Paragons.

In relation to the Paragon class, there are still some skill functions that are underutilized in GvG (party member haste shouts). It's hard to figure out if these are bar compression issues of dealing with meta builds, or issues with skill inefectiveness.